The Pale and the Purple Rose
- Thread starter Kellan Sullivan
- Start date
thanks for that.
seems the "ayes" have it and Tony-Liza (sounds like the leads in a terrible musical about star-crossed lovers) will be having a baby, gender TBD.
Edward of Westminster theoretically could meet her intentions to not marry out of Spain, but I agree it was a long shot and its why I discarded it. Maybe one day I'll come up with a way of making it happen. I'd love to see Isabel dealing with Marguerite d'Anjou as a mother-in-law.
Will keep that in mind
A Prince of Glorious Race[1]
Note: I haven't played chess in over 20 years, so forgive the spotty referencing, its more to serve as a metaphor for the "chessgame" of moves/countermoves that was the War of the Roses. But Edward playing as black (i.e. the Black Prince?) against white (York's roses) was too good an opportunity to pass up
July 1470
Soundtrack: René d’Anjou - Le Cœur d'Amour Epris
*exterior* *Paris* *the Sainte-Chapelle at the Chateau de Vincennes[2]* *Louis XI is present as his son, Charles, is baptised* *the new dauphin’s godparents are Edward of Westminster, Prince of Wales and Marguerite d’Anjou[3]* *we see that the Lancastrian “court in exile” – the duke of Somerset, the Earls of Dorset and Oxford, Viscount Beaumont and Baron Wenlock[4] – are all present* *we also see the “bad fairy” at Sleeping Beauty’s christening: the Earl of Warwick, his daughters and son-in-law, the duke of Clarence*
*cut to the courtyard of the hôtel du Roi de Sicile[5]* *we see the Lancastrian party returning*
Edward of Westminster: *from horseback* *gives order that Warwick is to hold the prince’s horse and help him dismount*
*several murmurs from the Lancastrians at this*
Edward: *gently chiding them* silence
*immediately there is an awkward hush* *Edward looks at Warwick – rather smugly – expectantly* *Warwick looks conflicted before he finally takes the steps forward and holds the reins*
Edward: *calmly dismounts* *doffs his hat to the Countess of Warwick and her daughters* *then requests Warwick to “walk with them” as Edward and Marguerite go inside*
*interior* *looks like a dining room* *Edward is sitting with his feet up on the table* *slouching back in the chair* *peeling an apple* *listening to Warwick’s speech* *also in the room are Marguerite and her father- as a sort of “mediator”/”guarantor of good behaviour”* *he and Edward also have a chessboard between them* *René is playing as white, Edward as black*
Edward: *interrupts Warwick* done. *moves piece*
Marguerite: *looks at her son* Edward-
Edward: *to Warwick* I will marry your daughter. You may be Protector of England until I am eighteen-
Marguerite: emphasis on the fact that you are not eighteen yet. Which means tha-
René: *moves chessman*
Edward: *to Warwick* *more insistently this time* done. *dismisses the man*
Marguerite: *looks at him as though to say “what have you done?”*
Edward: when you are quite finished doing your Medusa impersonation, Mother… out with it.
Marguerite: you cannot marry his daughter. She’s-
Edward: my cousin. I’m well aware. Popes grant dispensations for that sort of thing, don’t they, Bompa?
René: *unsurely as he moves* they do
Edward: there we go.
Marguerite: so you will marry some chit of a girl…when King Louis and the Dowager Duchess of Burgundy are both willing for you to marry the duke of Burgundy’s daughter?
Edward: *puts a slice of apple peel in his mouth with the knife* yes…King Louis also proposed me to marry the Princess of the Asturias and the princess of Portugal *tone is like “and look how that turned out”*
Marguerite: don’t talk with your mouth full.
Edward: Milord Warwick thinks himself very clever. Too clever. And no doubt, he would have spent the day arguing with us about why we should not make him crawl around like the dog he is…when in truth…hang him with his own rope.
René: and how do you plan to do that when you don’t even have eighteen summers under your belt?
Marguerite: *realizes* it means Warwick has started a clock on his own power. He has to go back immediately or lose the opportunity
Edward: *smirks at her* *takes his grandfather's pawn out by moving his own pawn to d4*
René: and you think a man like that will simply step aside when you turn eighteen, do you? *takes Edward's pawn on d4 out with another pawn*
Edward: I’m counting on that he won’t. But that assumes he lives to see that day, Bompa. *moves his queen to e4* Check, Bompa
René: he’ll sign a deal with the Devil to make sure he does. *moves his king to d2*
Edward: let him consign his soul to Hell in the name of his ambition then… I have no doubt that he will upset somebody – my money is that either Cousin Edmund puts a knife between his ribs or de Vere cuts his throat in his sleep – before then.
Marguerite: let’s just hope it’s not before we’re back in England.
Edward: they want to go back as much as we do. They won’t do anything until then.
Marguerite: and when we get back to England?
René: if you go back.
Edward: your signing a deal with the Devil metaphor counts for that too, Bompa. *moves his bishop to b4* Check again.
René: Édouard, I have been promised by knaves and charlatans for my whole life that I will be king of Naples once more. And yet here I sit-
Edward: when I am in England, I have every intention of helping you, Bompa *kisses his grandpa’s hand*
René: piecrust promise: easily made, easily broken. *moves his second knight to c3*
Edward: *withdraws his queen* *gets up and walks over to window* you noticed I didn’t let you say anything about the match he allowed for Cousin Edmund? Marrying that Talbot whore?
Marguerite: you mean you interrupted when the matter was broached.
Edward: Needs must, Mother. I currently have no heir. Or rather surfeit of heirs. The longer I remain without one, the longer the succession remains….open. Milord Wenlock and I have discussed it at length. First there is, naturally, Lady Wiltshire[6] who thinks that her darling son should be heir. Then there is Cousin Edmund that believes that he is heir. Naturally that Yorkist bastard with his ass on the throne disagrees. Now Warwick is so unhinged he wants me to name Clarence the heir.
Marguerite: that doesn’t explain why you are willing to allow the marriage.
Edward: we all know that Talbot’s son is York’s boy, not Cousin Edmund’s. Letting the boy be acknowledged as Edmund’s suits…since should we *arranges face in sad expression* hear the news of York’s tragic demise on the field of battle with no legitimate son, there can’t be anyone bringing forth the pre-contract asserting that Edmund’s son is actually York’s legitimate heir.
René: the boy has a point. *moves his rook to e1* Check, Édouard
Edward: secondly…Warwick’s condition I marry his daughter is a small price.
Marguerite: small?
Edward: when we get back to England and Warwick is no longer in the picture- either because he makes it until my birthday next year or he has an appointment with the headsman, a soldier or Cousin Edmund- I can simply decide I no longer need the marriage. Have it annulled. *moves his king to f8*
Marguerite: on what grounds?
Edward: I was too young. Warwick is so eager to make it a reality, he neglects to take that tiny little detail into account.
René: *nods approvingly* *moves his queen to e2*
Edward: and Marie…or the Portuguese infanta…or really, anyone…is more likely to want to marry me then. *sends his knight to d4* *René moves pieces*
Marguerite: assuming they don’t marry in the meantime.
Edward: Marie’s father will wait to see what his wife’s pregnancy will bring. He won’t marry her off until he knows. That means we have until January before we know one way or another. I wouldn’t be surprised if Warwick gets us back in London by then.
Marguerite: *looks at her son as though to say “my sweet summer child”*
Edward: and finally, accepting Warwick’s tutelage for eighteen months is a far smaller sacrifice than having to wait first for York’s daughter to grow up and then for York to die, like he suggested. Checkmate, Bompa *picks up his hat and checks his appearance in a mirror* now if you’ll excuse me…I need to go court a certain Neville girl. *walks out whistling Scaramella[7]*
*fade to black as we pan out to see that Edward's got his grandfather's king pinned on three sides*
[1] a slightly different take on Edward of Westminster. The common depiction of him is either the brutal teenager who set butterflies wings on fire and kicked puppies. Or Philippa Gregory's portrayal of him as a sort of "pasty-skinned mommy's boy" (who's also the equivalent 15th century equivalent of the musclebound braindead arm-candy). Essentially, he's never shown as anything but in awe of his mother, a sort of "idiot, obedient lapdog" who is only interested in soldiering.
I figured our only contemporaneous sources on him are both by people biased towards him/his family and it seems unlikely to me that he would've had absolutely no education outside of warcraft (which is what most depictions show him doing). So, he's a charming rogue (à la Charles II), charismatic/commanding (he can reduce his followers to silence, and if he inherited Henry V's height of 6'3", I'd say he's a pretty good chance for being "scary"), but still (slightly) psychopathic- he seems to be more than willing to let Warwick or Edward IV be killed- and arrogant (interrupting his mother). Not to mention shrewd- he's got three generations of shrewd women on his mother's side, and none of the Lancastrians (aside from his dad) can be said to have lacked political skills, two of them deposed a king (Henry IV deposed Richard II, Henry V disinherited Charles VII), after all, so him being an "idiot" or a "dolt" seems extraordinarily unlikely (yes, I know Henry V's son was Henry VI and Louis XI's son was Charles VIII, so it is a bit of "swing/miss)
Either way, I hope Lancastrians like @RedKing like a different take on Edward of Westminster
[2] This is the only royal residence in Paris I can find that has record of Louis XI staying there regularly enough that he had the royal apartments updated for he and his wife. He seems to have shared Louis XIV’s loathing of the city though. bet. Perhaps @material_boy knows more
[3] ISTR reading somewhere that Edward of Westminster was chosen as Charles’ godfather OTL as well. Not sure who his godmother was, but Marguerite makes a reasonable
[4] Not sure which of these men were actually in France. IIRC Wenlock was a bit of the WotR's very own Talleyrand
[5] Anjou’s Parisian hotel. The ruins were later demolished and the Hôtel de La Force (later the Prison de La Force from the 18th century) built on the spot.
[6] Margaret Beaufort. While the woman was a devout Lancastrian, I've never been able to find what Marguerite d'Anjou makes of her half-sister-in-law. And even if Marguerite did like Maggie, that's no guarantee that Edward and Henry Tudor would've got on/liked on another. The way Edward speaks, it sounds more as though its her presumption (of heirship) that grates than any sort of dislike
[7] Scaramella va alla Guerra- the scarecrow goes off to war- was something of a "hit" back in the day
July 1470
Soundtrack: René d’Anjou - Le Cœur d'Amour Epris
*exterior* *Paris* *the Sainte-Chapelle at the Chateau de Vincennes[2]* *Louis XI is present as his son, Charles, is baptised* *the new dauphin’s godparents are Edward of Westminster, Prince of Wales and Marguerite d’Anjou[3]* *we see that the Lancastrian “court in exile” – the duke of Somerset, the Earls of Dorset and Oxford, Viscount Beaumont and Baron Wenlock[4] – are all present* *we also see the “bad fairy” at Sleeping Beauty’s christening: the Earl of Warwick, his daughters and son-in-law, the duke of Clarence*
*cut to the courtyard of the hôtel du Roi de Sicile[5]* *we see the Lancastrian party returning*
Edward of Westminster: *from horseback* *gives order that Warwick is to hold the prince’s horse and help him dismount*
*several murmurs from the Lancastrians at this*
Edward: *gently chiding them* silence
*immediately there is an awkward hush* *Edward looks at Warwick – rather smugly – expectantly* *Warwick looks conflicted before he finally takes the steps forward and holds the reins*
Edward: *calmly dismounts* *doffs his hat to the Countess of Warwick and her daughters* *then requests Warwick to “walk with them” as Edward and Marguerite go inside*
*interior* *looks like a dining room* *Edward is sitting with his feet up on the table* *slouching back in the chair* *peeling an apple* *listening to Warwick’s speech* *also in the room are Marguerite and her father- as a sort of “mediator”/”guarantor of good behaviour”* *he and Edward also have a chessboard between them* *René is playing as white, Edward as black*
Edward: *interrupts Warwick* done. *moves piece*
Marguerite: *looks at her son* Edward-
Edward: *to Warwick* I will marry your daughter. You may be Protector of England until I am eighteen-
Marguerite: emphasis on the fact that you are not eighteen yet. Which means tha-
René: *moves chessman*
Edward: *to Warwick* *more insistently this time* done. *dismisses the man*
Marguerite: *looks at him as though to say “what have you done?”*
Edward: when you are quite finished doing your Medusa impersonation, Mother… out with it.
Marguerite: you cannot marry his daughter. She’s-
Edward: my cousin. I’m well aware. Popes grant dispensations for that sort of thing, don’t they, Bompa?
René: *unsurely as he moves* they do
Edward: there we go.
Marguerite: so you will marry some chit of a girl…when King Louis and the Dowager Duchess of Burgundy are both willing for you to marry the duke of Burgundy’s daughter?
Edward: *puts a slice of apple peel in his mouth with the knife* yes…King Louis also proposed me to marry the Princess of the Asturias and the princess of Portugal *tone is like “and look how that turned out”*
Marguerite: don’t talk with your mouth full.
Edward: Milord Warwick thinks himself very clever. Too clever. And no doubt, he would have spent the day arguing with us about why we should not make him crawl around like the dog he is…when in truth…hang him with his own rope.
René: and how do you plan to do that when you don’t even have eighteen summers under your belt?
Marguerite: *realizes* it means Warwick has started a clock on his own power. He has to go back immediately or lose the opportunity
Edward: *smirks at her* *takes his grandfather's pawn out by moving his own pawn to d4*
René: and you think a man like that will simply step aside when you turn eighteen, do you? *takes Edward's pawn on d4 out with another pawn*
Edward: I’m counting on that he won’t. But that assumes he lives to see that day, Bompa. *moves his queen to e4* Check, Bompa
René: he’ll sign a deal with the Devil to make sure he does. *moves his king to d2*
Edward: let him consign his soul to Hell in the name of his ambition then… I have no doubt that he will upset somebody – my money is that either Cousin Edmund puts a knife between his ribs or de Vere cuts his throat in his sleep – before then.
Marguerite: let’s just hope it’s not before we’re back in England.
Edward: they want to go back as much as we do. They won’t do anything until then.
Marguerite: and when we get back to England?
René: if you go back.
Edward: your signing a deal with the Devil metaphor counts for that too, Bompa. *moves his bishop to b4* Check again.
René: Édouard, I have been promised by knaves and charlatans for my whole life that I will be king of Naples once more. And yet here I sit-
Edward: when I am in England, I have every intention of helping you, Bompa *kisses his grandpa’s hand*
René: piecrust promise: easily made, easily broken. *moves his second knight to c3*
Edward: *withdraws his queen* *gets up and walks over to window* you noticed I didn’t let you say anything about the match he allowed for Cousin Edmund? Marrying that Talbot whore?
Marguerite: you mean you interrupted when the matter was broached.
Edward: Needs must, Mother. I currently have no heir. Or rather surfeit of heirs. The longer I remain without one, the longer the succession remains….open. Milord Wenlock and I have discussed it at length. First there is, naturally, Lady Wiltshire[6] who thinks that her darling son should be heir. Then there is Cousin Edmund that believes that he is heir. Naturally that Yorkist bastard with his ass on the throne disagrees. Now Warwick is so unhinged he wants me to name Clarence the heir.
Marguerite: that doesn’t explain why you are willing to allow the marriage.
Edward: we all know that Talbot’s son is York’s boy, not Cousin Edmund’s. Letting the boy be acknowledged as Edmund’s suits…since should we *arranges face in sad expression* hear the news of York’s tragic demise on the field of battle with no legitimate son, there can’t be anyone bringing forth the pre-contract asserting that Edmund’s son is actually York’s legitimate heir.
René: the boy has a point. *moves his rook to e1* Check, Édouard
Edward: secondly…Warwick’s condition I marry his daughter is a small price.
Marguerite: small?
Edward: when we get back to England and Warwick is no longer in the picture- either because he makes it until my birthday next year or he has an appointment with the headsman, a soldier or Cousin Edmund- I can simply decide I no longer need the marriage. Have it annulled. *moves his king to f8*
Marguerite: on what grounds?
Edward: I was too young. Warwick is so eager to make it a reality, he neglects to take that tiny little detail into account.
René: *nods approvingly* *moves his queen to e2*
Edward: and Marie…or the Portuguese infanta…or really, anyone…is more likely to want to marry me then. *sends his knight to d4* *René moves pieces*
Marguerite: assuming they don’t marry in the meantime.
Edward: Marie’s father will wait to see what his wife’s pregnancy will bring. He won’t marry her off until he knows. That means we have until January before we know one way or another. I wouldn’t be surprised if Warwick gets us back in London by then.
Marguerite: *looks at her son as though to say “my sweet summer child”*
Edward: and finally, accepting Warwick’s tutelage for eighteen months is a far smaller sacrifice than having to wait first for York’s daughter to grow up and then for York to die, like he suggested. Checkmate, Bompa *picks up his hat and checks his appearance in a mirror* now if you’ll excuse me…I need to go court a certain Neville girl. *walks out whistling Scaramella[7]*
*fade to black as we pan out to see that Edward's got his grandfather's king pinned on three sides*
[1] a slightly different take on Edward of Westminster. The common depiction of him is either the brutal teenager who set butterflies wings on fire and kicked puppies. Or Philippa Gregory's portrayal of him as a sort of "pasty-skinned mommy's boy" (who's also the equivalent 15th century equivalent of the musclebound braindead arm-candy). Essentially, he's never shown as anything but in awe of his mother, a sort of "idiot, obedient lapdog" who is only interested in soldiering.
I figured our only contemporaneous sources on him are both by people biased towards him/his family and it seems unlikely to me that he would've had absolutely no education outside of warcraft (which is what most depictions show him doing). So, he's a charming rogue (à la Charles II), charismatic/commanding (he can reduce his followers to silence, and if he inherited Henry V's height of 6'3", I'd say he's a pretty good chance for being "scary"), but still (slightly) psychopathic- he seems to be more than willing to let Warwick or Edward IV be killed- and arrogant (interrupting his mother). Not to mention shrewd- he's got three generations of shrewd women on his mother's side, and none of the Lancastrians (aside from his dad) can be said to have lacked political skills, two of them deposed a king (Henry IV deposed Richard II, Henry V disinherited Charles VII), after all, so him being an "idiot" or a "dolt" seems extraordinarily unlikely (yes, I know Henry V's son was Henry VI and Louis XI's son was Charles VIII, so it is a bit of "swing/miss)
Either way, I hope Lancastrians like @RedKing like a different take on Edward of Westminster
[2] This is the only royal residence in Paris I can find that has record of Louis XI staying there regularly enough that he had the royal apartments updated for he and his wife. He seems to have shared Louis XIV’s loathing of the city though. bet. Perhaps @material_boy knows more
[3] ISTR reading somewhere that Edward of Westminster was chosen as Charles’ godfather OTL as well. Not sure who his godmother was, but Marguerite makes a reasonable
[4] Not sure which of these men were actually in France. IIRC Wenlock was a bit of the WotR's very own Talleyrand
[5] Anjou’s Parisian hotel. The ruins were later demolished and the Hôtel de La Force (later the Prison de La Force from the 18th century) built on the spot.
[6] Margaret Beaufort. While the woman was a devout Lancastrian, I've never been able to find what Marguerite d'Anjou makes of her half-sister-in-law. And even if Marguerite did like Maggie, that's no guarantee that Edward and Henry Tudor would've got on/liked on another. The way Edward speaks, it sounds more as though its her presumption (of heirship) that grates than any sort of dislike
[7] Scaramella va alla Guerra- the scarecrow goes off to war- was something of a "hit" back in the day
Very interesting. I like your take on Westminster. At least he’s not a flat character like so often portrayed. A part of me is actually rooting a bit for this one
Edward of Westminster as a actually interesting character? Lord, it will be a miracle today.
thank you
I'll admit that I was originally going to show it as Marguerite running the show, but then I looked through the other depictions of Edward out there and was like...you know what this needs?
I honestly didn't understand how he could really have been as much of "nonentity" as he was. Even Charles II or Louis XVII we know far more about their personalities (yes, I know it was pre-printing press (France only got her first one in 1470), but it just seemed odd). So...went with a smidge of the usual Plantagenet arrogance/imperiousness, some of bluff Prince Hal's scapegrace charm, Marguerite d'Anjou's cunning/shrewness, some French manners, René of Anjou's enjoyment of art and music, set to broil for his years in exile and voila...Edward of Westminster, Prince of Wales actually has a brain. And uses it. Which is more than can be said for his namesake rival across the Channel.
Rather, Edward IV uses the wrong head to think sometimes IMO
Thank you, I'll certainly try
Thank you. I think his was a voice that got lost in the noise OTL. Like Frankie Bonaparte (aka Napoléon II) he gets dismissed as "died too young, didn't accomplish anything, left no issue" and we skip over to Edward IV and Henry VII. Yet, for pretty much the last decade, he had been the focus of Lancastrian hopes and dreams rather than his pious father. Edward IV clearly regarded him as "threat enough" to offer him a match with Elizabeth of York and to promise him a Stephen-Henry II type succession. True, this was probably in lieu of Edward having a son of his own, or an attempt to secure Lancastrian support, but why does everyone assume that Gregory or Mancini or the Milanese ambassador's portrayal is accurate? I haven't so much created a "new Edward" as I've tried (as with Frankie) to temper the oft-cited quotes about him or from his own lips (in Frankie's case) with context. Why couldn't either have been a brutally ambitious psychopath who was also charming and charismatic (psychopaths generally are)? Edward's not just "mad King Henry's son" but also "the crafty Queen Marguerite's", the grandson of artistic Maecenas le Bon Roi René, the grandson of the king who won Azincour AND founded Eton, the nephew of Thomas, Duke of Clarence AND "Good Duke Humphrey", the great-grandson of the indomitable and ambitious Yolande of Aragon who dominated the Hundred Years War far longer than Jeanne d'Arc.
I'll admit to liking your take on Edward. It's a shame he's gonna go boom in about a year.....
Proditionem Amo, sed Proditores non Laudo[1]
August 1470
Soundtrack: Lament On The Death Of His Brother
*exterior* *England* *we see men in Warwick livery galloping across the countryside* *a map of England shows a pool spreading from Warwick Castle to slowly reach up to Berwick on the Scots border* *we see these liveried men arriving in “Neville strongholds” like Durham, Worcester, York and naturally, Warwick and Salisbury* *but also in cities that support the Lancastrian cause* *we see town criers reading a proclamation out in the market place* *bishops read it from the pulpits to their congregations*
Earl of Warwick: *voice over*The most noble and Christian Prince, our most dread Sovereign Lord, King Harry the Sixth, very true undoubted king of England and of France, now being in the hands of his rebels and those of his great enemy, Edward, late the earl of Marche, usurper, oppressor, and destroyer of our said Sovereign Lord, and of the noble blood of this realm of England and of the true commons of the same, by his mischievous and inordinate new founded laws and ordinances inconvenient, to the uttermost destruction of the good commons of the said realm of England. If it so should continue for the reformation whereof, in especial for the commonwealth of all the said realm, the right high and mighty, George, Prince and Duke of Clarence, Jasper, Earl of Pembroke, Richard, Earl of Warwick and of Salisbury, and John, Earl of Oxford, as very and true faithful cousins, subjects and liege men to our said sovereign Lord King Harry the Sixth. By the sufficient authority committed unto them in this behalf, by the whole voice and assent, of the Most Noble Princess, Margaret, Queen of England (and the Right High and Mighty Prince Edward) at this time being Queen, unto this realm, to put them in their most uttermost endeavour to deliver our said sovereign out of his great captivity and danger of his enemies unto liberty, and by the grace of God to rest him in his royal estate, and crown of this sad realm of England. To reform and amend all the great mischievous oppressions and all other inordinate abuses now reigning in the said realm, to the perpetual peace, prosperity, to the common welfare of this realm. It is fully concluded and granted that all mail men within the realm of England, of every estate, degree, condition that they be, be fully pardoned of all manner of treason or trespass imagined or done, in any manner of wise contrary to their allegiance against Edward, late the earl of Marche and his wife, before the day of coming and arrival of the aforesaid duke and earls in this realm. So that they may put them in their uttermost endeavour, and draw them to the company of the aforesaid earls, to help, to fortify them in their purpose and journey. Except such offenders who make any resistances against the aforesaid duke and earls, or any of them, or of their company. Also the aforesaid duke and earls, in the name and behalf of our said Sovereign Lord, King Harry the Sixth, charging and commanding that all manner of men, that be between sixteen and fifty years of age, incontinently and immediately after this proclamation be made, be ready, in their best array defensible, to attend and await upon the aforesaid earls, to assist them in their journey, to the intent afore rehearsed, upon pain of death and forfeiture of all that they may forfeit within this England, except such persons as be visited with sickness, or with not of such power that they may not go.[2]
*exterior* *Eltham Palace*
*interior* *Edward IV is on the throne in front of the assembled court* *Antony Wydeville and Richard, Duke of Gloucester flanking him* *the Duchess of York arrives* *curtseys*
Edward IV: *talking to Richard* *ignores his mother for a good few minutes as he finishes his conversation* *then turns slowly to look at her* Lady mother. *motions for her to rise*
Dowager Duchess of York: your Majesty.
Edward IV: *motions to Richard to hand her a copy of the proclamation* what is your response to these assertions by your brother, Madam?
Dowager Duchess: *reads the proclamation* *we see her growing more and more pale*
Edward IV: as a courtesy to you, Madam, we granted your brother, my uncle, a reprieve from his sins against us and our beloved wife, for his behaviour against her father and the Dowager Duchess of Bedford[3]. Instead, he has turned on us, and allied with the very men he once sought to depose. The men who executed our father, our brother?
Dowager Duchess: *stubbornly* that was Queen Margaret-
Edward IV: and yet, you would have me spare them when they rise against us?
Dowager Duchess: *nervously* he is your brother.
Edward IV: is his name not first and foremost on the list of men who have rallied to their liege lord, King Henry? To Queen Margaret. Our father’s very murderer according to you? Was he not the one who your brother attempted to replace us with? Is he not the one named in this proclamation as justifying all subjects in England forfeiting their loyalty to us-
Dowager Duchess: *clearly realizing what Edward is getting at* I am sure that George had-
Edward IV: had no idea? What is next, Madam? Will you be repeating your brother’s assertions against the Dowager Duchess of Bedford, that she has placed a spell on him, depriving him of his wits? Perhaps that he felt he was somehow in danger when we pardoned him, that he should flee instead to the bosom of the very men who executed our father
Dowager Duchess: *repeats* he is your brother.
Edward IV: *practically snarling* so was Rutland- you remember him? The brother they murdered?- so is Dickon *looks at Richard* what of the fact that we are George’s brothers? Or that you, Madam, are Warwick’s sister? Do you believe that either of them were moved by such sentiment? Do you believe that somehow, this will guarantee you protection?
Dowager Duchess: *silent*
Edward IV: all we can say for George is that he is as big a fool as Queen Margaret’s son by trusting in Warwick’s promises. If the last few years are any indication, Warwick is a snake poised to strike the moment he is no longer heeded. Thus, it is with a heavy heart, that we hereby declare him, and all who profess loyalty to him and his cause, traitors.
Dowager Duchess: *looks horrified*
*we hear a murmuring from the assembled courtiers*
Edward IV: the choice is yours, Madam…do you stand with your son or fall with your brother[4]?
*fade to black as Cecily comes forward to kiss Edward’s hand as a gesture of submission*
[1] Caesar’s quote, often mistranslated as “treason I love, I hate the traitor”
[2] This is Warwick’s OTL proclamation of Henry VI’s readeption per the Chronicles of the White Rose of York.
[3] Jacquetta of Luxembourg. Figure that despite her various remarriages, Cecily’s sister, the duchess of Norfolk, was still commonly referred to by her highest title; similarly, Mary Tudor was still called “the French queen” despite her remarriage to Brandon.
[4] I'm sorry, but I don't buy that a woman known as "Proud Cis" would've gone to pieces crying and begging for Edward to spare his brother as depicted on the White Queen. This is a woman who knows the price of treason and to quote someone else "in the game of thrones, you win or you die".
Edward is also politic in that he never explicitly refers to the Lancastrians as being the guilty party here- or to Warwick imprisoning him because then they can just point to his "detention" of King Henry- but rather blames Warwick completely. Closest he gets is to say that "according to you [his mother] the Lancastrians murdered our father". She likewise hedges by pointing out that it was "Queen Margaret" not the Lancastrians. To which Edward points out "and yet you would have me spare them when they do the same against me"
Soundtrack: Lament On The Death Of His Brother
*exterior* *England* *we see men in Warwick livery galloping across the countryside* *a map of England shows a pool spreading from Warwick Castle to slowly reach up to Berwick on the Scots border* *we see these liveried men arriving in “Neville strongholds” like Durham, Worcester, York and naturally, Warwick and Salisbury* *but also in cities that support the Lancastrian cause* *we see town criers reading a proclamation out in the market place* *bishops read it from the pulpits to their congregations*
Earl of Warwick: *voice over*The most noble and Christian Prince, our most dread Sovereign Lord, King Harry the Sixth, very true undoubted king of England and of France, now being in the hands of his rebels and those of his great enemy, Edward, late the earl of Marche, usurper, oppressor, and destroyer of our said Sovereign Lord, and of the noble blood of this realm of England and of the true commons of the same, by his mischievous and inordinate new founded laws and ordinances inconvenient, to the uttermost destruction of the good commons of the said realm of England. If it so should continue for the reformation whereof, in especial for the commonwealth of all the said realm, the right high and mighty, George, Prince and Duke of Clarence, Jasper, Earl of Pembroke, Richard, Earl of Warwick and of Salisbury, and John, Earl of Oxford, as very and true faithful cousins, subjects and liege men to our said sovereign Lord King Harry the Sixth. By the sufficient authority committed unto them in this behalf, by the whole voice and assent, of the Most Noble Princess, Margaret, Queen of England (and the Right High and Mighty Prince Edward) at this time being Queen, unto this realm, to put them in their most uttermost endeavour to deliver our said sovereign out of his great captivity and danger of his enemies unto liberty, and by the grace of God to rest him in his royal estate, and crown of this sad realm of England. To reform and amend all the great mischievous oppressions and all other inordinate abuses now reigning in the said realm, to the perpetual peace, prosperity, to the common welfare of this realm. It is fully concluded and granted that all mail men within the realm of England, of every estate, degree, condition that they be, be fully pardoned of all manner of treason or trespass imagined or done, in any manner of wise contrary to their allegiance against Edward, late the earl of Marche and his wife, before the day of coming and arrival of the aforesaid duke and earls in this realm. So that they may put them in their uttermost endeavour, and draw them to the company of the aforesaid earls, to help, to fortify them in their purpose and journey. Except such offenders who make any resistances against the aforesaid duke and earls, or any of them, or of their company. Also the aforesaid duke and earls, in the name and behalf of our said Sovereign Lord, King Harry the Sixth, charging and commanding that all manner of men, that be between sixteen and fifty years of age, incontinently and immediately after this proclamation be made, be ready, in their best array defensible, to attend and await upon the aforesaid earls, to assist them in their journey, to the intent afore rehearsed, upon pain of death and forfeiture of all that they may forfeit within this England, except such persons as be visited with sickness, or with not of such power that they may not go.[2]
*exterior* *Eltham Palace*
*interior* *Edward IV is on the throne in front of the assembled court* *Antony Wydeville and Richard, Duke of Gloucester flanking him* *the Duchess of York arrives* *curtseys*
Edward IV: *talking to Richard* *ignores his mother for a good few minutes as he finishes his conversation* *then turns slowly to look at her* Lady mother. *motions for her to rise*
Dowager Duchess of York: your Majesty.
Edward IV: *motions to Richard to hand her a copy of the proclamation* what is your response to these assertions by your brother, Madam?
Dowager Duchess: *reads the proclamation* *we see her growing more and more pale*
Edward IV: as a courtesy to you, Madam, we granted your brother, my uncle, a reprieve from his sins against us and our beloved wife, for his behaviour against her father and the Dowager Duchess of Bedford[3]. Instead, he has turned on us, and allied with the very men he once sought to depose. The men who executed our father, our brother?
Dowager Duchess: *stubbornly* that was Queen Margaret-
Edward IV: and yet, you would have me spare them when they rise against us?
Dowager Duchess: *nervously* he is your brother.
Edward IV: is his name not first and foremost on the list of men who have rallied to their liege lord, King Henry? To Queen Margaret. Our father’s very murderer according to you? Was he not the one who your brother attempted to replace us with? Is he not the one named in this proclamation as justifying all subjects in England forfeiting their loyalty to us-
Dowager Duchess: *clearly realizing what Edward is getting at* I am sure that George had-
Edward IV: had no idea? What is next, Madam? Will you be repeating your brother’s assertions against the Dowager Duchess of Bedford, that she has placed a spell on him, depriving him of his wits? Perhaps that he felt he was somehow in danger when we pardoned him, that he should flee instead to the bosom of the very men who executed our father
Dowager Duchess: *repeats* he is your brother.
Edward IV: *practically snarling* so was Rutland- you remember him? The brother they murdered?- so is Dickon *looks at Richard* what of the fact that we are George’s brothers? Or that you, Madam, are Warwick’s sister? Do you believe that either of them were moved by such sentiment? Do you believe that somehow, this will guarantee you protection?
Dowager Duchess: *silent*
Edward IV: all we can say for George is that he is as big a fool as Queen Margaret’s son by trusting in Warwick’s promises. If the last few years are any indication, Warwick is a snake poised to strike the moment he is no longer heeded. Thus, it is with a heavy heart, that we hereby declare him, and all who profess loyalty to him and his cause, traitors.
Dowager Duchess: *looks horrified*
*we hear a murmuring from the assembled courtiers*
Edward IV: the choice is yours, Madam…do you stand with your son or fall with your brother[4]?
*fade to black as Cecily comes forward to kiss Edward’s hand as a gesture of submission*
[1] Caesar’s quote, often mistranslated as “treason I love, I hate the traitor”
[2] This is Warwick’s OTL proclamation of Henry VI’s readeption per the Chronicles of the White Rose of York.
[3] Jacquetta of Luxembourg. Figure that despite her various remarriages, Cecily’s sister, the duchess of Norfolk, was still commonly referred to by her highest title; similarly, Mary Tudor was still called “the French queen” despite her remarriage to Brandon.
[4] I'm sorry, but I don't buy that a woman known as "Proud Cis" would've gone to pieces crying and begging for Edward to spare his brother as depicted on the White Queen. This is a woman who knows the price of treason and to quote someone else "in the game of thrones, you win or you die".
Edward is also politic in that he never explicitly refers to the Lancastrians as being the guilty party here- or to Warwick imprisoning him because then they can just point to his "detention" of King Henry- but rather blames Warwick completely. Closest he gets is to say that "according to you [his mother] the Lancastrians murdered our father". She likewise hedges by pointing out that it was "Queen Margaret" not the Lancastrians. To which Edward points out "and yet you would have me spare them when they do the same against me"
I thought it was Richard II who changed it? ISTR reading that Henry V and Henry VI did use the style (although arguing that them being king of France entitled them to it), albeit intermittently.
That wasn't my intention, but Cecily's actions ARE very much the seeds from which Warwick's rebellion arose. While Edward had humiliated Warwick, Cecily's reaction to her son's marriage to Liz Wydeville (whether her threat to "name him a bastard" is solely a Philippa Gregory plot bunny or not) "enabled" Warwick. When her brother rebelled against and imprisoned Edward, Cecily did/said nothing (thereby implying consent under the English law of the day). So while it is debatable what she COULD'VE done, it's safe to say that this is perhaps the first time mother and son have seen one another since then. Edward's pointing out the gaps in her excuse "he's your brother" by asking her "did you tell him that?"
I originally wanted him to use the accusation "it is you who has been the cause of this butchery, Madam" at her.
I couldn't find anything that he did actually declare Warwick's supporters traitors (although given the audience, he may be talking more to the nobles who might be wavering than about the commons). But that his reaction to Robin of Redesdale's rebellion WAS criticized - even by contemporaries - as being "tardy" and "lackluster"
VVD0D95
Banned
From what I can make our Richard ii changes it from simple highness to grace then the change to majesty came with Henry VIII who thought he should be able to compete with Charles V. But I’ve also seen records saying majesty was used interchangeably with Grace from the ti e of Richard ii
ah, okay, will fix
Well, Edward IV inspired Robert Baratheon, Joffrey was inspired by Edward of Westminster and Tywin is inspired by Warwick, so probably not entirely a coincidence.
@RedKing @Rose’s War @other Lancastrian supporters was there anything like an actual defeat that led to Edward IV fleeing to Burgundy in October 1470? Since most sources seem to go "Warwick landed at Dorset (think it was), Edward flees to Burgundy"
Robb took after Edward IV, Henry IV was bobby b, hell, Henry IV tv tropes page call him the real life Robert baratheon