WI: Maria Theresa of Austria married Charles III of Spain?

Maria Theresa, Charles VI's heiress, was at the center of his plans of what might happen following his eventual demise.

While there were plans dating back to 1703 that discussed contingency plans if the male Habsburg line was to die out: mainly granting succession rights to Joseph I's daughters as well as any future female issue that Charles VI might have, with Joseph's daughters taking precedence. When Charles VI succeeded his brother, he wanted to amend these plans to give his own daughters preference. This was done secretly and led to what became known as the Pragmatic Sanction. For over a decade, Charles VI labored to secure diplomatic recognition for the Pragmatic Sanction among the Courts of Europe, and also worked towards securing a marriage for his heiress, Maria Theresa. His initial plans always centered upon the House of Lorraine: Maria Theresa's first potential suitor was to Léopold Clément, heir to the Duchy of Lorraine. He was supposed to be sent to Vienna in 1723 to finish his education, but he died. Léopold was eventually exchanged for his younger brother, François Étienne / Francis Stephen—who eventually married Maria Theresa in 1736 and would become Holy Roman Emperor in 1745.

Though Lorraine was the most popular idea, Charles VI considered other possibilities. One idea that has been popularly explored in Alternate History was the possibility of a match between Frederick the Great and Maria Theresa—Frederick himself apparently proposed himself as a possible candidate in exchange for giving up his succession rights. Religious differences also plagued the possibility of such a match. Aside from that, Elisabeth Farnese expressed interest in a rapprochement with Austria and proposed that the Infante Carlos (OTL Charles III of Spain) should marry Maria Theresa while the Infante Felipe (OTL Philip of Parma) should marry Maria Anna. Charles and Maria Theresa was allegedly betrothed in 1725, but it was eventually broken off—probably sometime in 1729.

Now, what if the betrothal held? Let's just say for whatever reason that Charles VI is adamant that this is the best way forward—maybe he's just not that impressed with François Étienne, or for whatever other reason you choose. In 1725 Carlos was behind his brother Fernando in the Spanish Succession, and his mother Elisabeth Farnese had managed to secure the right for Carlos to succeed to Parma following the death of Francesco and Antonio Farnese. You would likely need something to bump Carlos further down within the Spanish Succession, as I'm sure none of the European Powers would accept the idea of Carlos being wed to the Austrian heiress when he's literally a heartbeat away from the Spanish throne. Ideally that would be Barbara of Portugal having children with Fernando VI: such as Barbara's pregnancy in 1733 being successful (IOTL, she had a stillborn son). If they can have a few more children, even better.

What sort of effects might this have going forward? Italy seems to be the place that have the most immediate effects: how do things play out if Carlos is still engaged to Maria Theresa and in effect being groomed to become the next Holy Roman Emperor? Carlos was accepted as heir of Tuscany in 1718, but he didn't enjoy universal recognition. I imagine Charles VI's tune might change if Maria Theresa remains engaged to him, but I imagine other European powers might object instead, as Tuscany + Parma eventually passing into Austrian hands means that almost the whole of Italy would be under Austrian influence. I suppose the most likely plan is that Carlos might be swapped out as heir for Tuscany for his younger brother, Felipe. The only other idea was unpopular and enjoyed almost no support: that Gian Gastone would be succeeded by his sister, Anna Maria Luisa—who in 1729 is a 62 year old woman, a widow with no children, meaning that the problem is only being kicked down the hallway for someone else to deal with when she eventually dies.

Aside from that, there would certainly be huge effects in Spain aligning themselves with the Austrians—especially where it concerns conflicts in the 1730s and 1740s and diplomatic relations. An Austro-Spanish alliance that holds might preclude reconciliation between the French and Spanish branches of the Bourbons, and will likely have other diplomatic knock-off effects among the stately quadrille: no Anglo-Austrian alliance, and perhaps even causing the Anglo-French alliance to endure beyond 1731: especially if French politicians see the possible union of Carlos + Maria Theresa as a revival of the Habsburg encirclement of the 16th + 17th centuries, they might see more interest in maintaining good relations with Britain, and the British may as well: there were certainly some within British political circles who espoused Francophile views and saw French military / cultural domination in Europe as inevitable. If French and Britain do not remain formally allied, they may have better relations, though of course their issues in the wider world might preclude that. Conflicts such as the War of the Polish Succession and eventual War of the Austrian Succession would likely have much different alliance lineups and play out quite differently, too.
 
The Bourbons would then control France, Spain AND the HRE/Austria… I don’t see the European powers (especially Britain) being keen on this idea
 
Charles III marrying Maria Theresa would ensure near total Bourbon domination of Western Europe. Everyone else would be freaking out and banding together in an enemy of the enemy is my friend coalition to keep the balance of power from getting out of hand.
 
The Bourbons would then control France, Spain AND the HRE/Austria… I don’t see the European powers (especially Britain) being keen on this idea
Well, it would be distinct branches—not all under one person. The French and Spanish Bourbons did not always walk in lockstep, and especially in the period after the War of the Spanish Succession they often were in conflict (see: War of the Quadruple Alliance, failure of the match between Louis XV and Mariana Victoria of Spain, ect). Relations were not somewhat normalized until the Pacte de Famille in 1733. If Spain remains allied to Austria, any reconciliation between France and Spain is much more unlikely.

But I agree that there's no way this marriage would go through if things play out as in OTL, with him being the heir to his brother Fernando VI and Fernando VI having no children. In the 1720s there's no idea what may happen, but given the opposition that there was IOTL, he'd need to be bumped further down the line of succession before their eventual marriage in the mid-1730s. I could also see the need for other stipulations: much as Felipe V had to renounce his rights to France, Carlos may have to renounce his rights to Spain to marry Maria Theresa.

Charles III marrying Maria Theresa would ensure near total Bourbon domination of Western Europe. Everyone else would be freaking out and banding together in an enemy of the enemy is my friend coalition to keep the balance of power from getting out of hand.
I think one has to be careful of equating a dynasty = they are all aligned and work together. France and Spain did not always enjoy easy relations even after Felipe V became king, and there were often tensions between the Austrian and Spanish Habsburgs too. From 1714-1731, Franco-Spanish relations were essentially in the pits and they did not formally align with one another again until 1733 following the dissolution of Spain's alliance with Austria and France's alliance with Britain. It is super likely that this Austrian Bourbons (or Bourbon-Habsburgs, whatever you want to call them) will not have good relations with their French relatives. French ambitions will likely still see them try and throw a wrench in Charles VI's plans and offer support to Bavaria and Saxony when he eventually croaks.

They were betrothed IOTL for a period, and it was a match that Charles VI considered for a time. The only way to keep it together would likely be to ensure that Charles III doesn't get anywhere near inheriting Spain (hence the need for Fernando VI to have surviving issue). I agree that there is no way for Maria Theresa to marry Carlos III as things stood IOTL, as even before he took Naples during the War of the Polish Succession there was a possibility of him inheriting Tuscany + Parma.

If they do wed and have issue, it likely ends in an odd situation of there being three distinct branches of the House of Bourbon (France, Spain, and Austria) with the Spanish and Austrian branches essentially being estranged from their French cousins. France supporting the claims of Maria Theresa's rivals would only add to the enmity.
 
I think the above is true, the Spanish-Austrian branch will at some point fight with the French branch, as France's foreign policy will clash with some of the two at some point principally with Austria. Hostilities further depended on the ambitions of the Spanish Bourbons, now a question, could Maria Theresia's dowry include the reestablishment of spanish Netherlands Or some other agreement? This could bring back hostilities between France and Spain.
 
Last edited:
I'm skeptical that the match could have been carried forward. It was one thing for Austria and Spain to normalize relations after the War of the Spanish Succession and the War of Quadruple Alliance, it was another for them to actually form an alliance and still another thing to carry that alliance forward into a dynastic match.

I think the Treaty of Vienna was first and foremost based on the need to normalize relations, but then deepened, I think, mainly out of pique. Philip was quite upset about Mariana Victoria being returned to Spain (though he caused that by sending Louise Elisabeth back to France) while Austria was sick of the English and Dutch haranguing them about the Ostend company, most recently at the end of the Congress in Cambrai in 1724.

So there was an obvious need to normalize relations, to reiterate the mutual renunciations on each other's territory and to normalize trade. Then each side had one particular gain, for Austria it was to get Spain to recognize the Pragmatic Sanction. For Spain it was to secure the Infante Carlos' rights to Parma, Piacenza and Tuscany. All of that could have been done without a dynastic match and without seriously antagonizing the French or British. So what was there really to gain by taking things a step further? Not much, IMHO, for either side. So I think it was just annoyance, Spain with France and Austria with Britain, that drove the alliance beyond what was natural or workable in the international setting of the time. Which is born out by the fact that the man who negotiated it, Ripperda, was disavowed and imprisoned within six months of returning to Madrid from Vienna.

Then when the Spanish besieged Gibraltar the whole alliance was proven to be useless as the Austrians couldn't and wouldn't do anything to assist. Meanwhile the government had changed again in Paris, with the Duke de Bourbon (who was the primary architect of Louis XV's marriage to Marie Leszczynska) being dismissed and replaced as chief minister by the Cardinal de Fleury. Fleury was then able to initiate a rapprochement with Spain to the point that he mediated a peace between Britain and Spain which ended the conflict in Gibraltar. Spain then threw Austria overboard at the Peace conference in Soissons in which it was able to get the recognition for Parma and Tuscany. This culminated in the Treaty of Seville between Spain, France and Britain in which the latter two powers not only recognized Carlos' rights in Parma and Tuscany but authorized a limited Spanish military expedition to Italy to secure them if necessary. That pact was underpinned by a different dynastic double match, Ferdinand to Barbara of Portugal and Mariana Victoria to Barbara's brother Joseph. Portugal here being, as a British ally, a kind of ersatz Anglo-Spanish match.

So to make the Habsburg-Bourbon match work I think you would need a more intractable breakdown of relations between Spain and France. Maybe Bourbon stays in power instead of being replaced by Fleury. War would have to escalate between Spain and Britain to the extent that even modest Austrian financial support is seen as sufficient to maintain the alliance. Because the main reason things broke down was not Charles' or Austria's lukewarm commitment to the idea but the increasing realization on the part of Spain (and especially Farnese) that they had more to gain by coming to terms with Britain and France than by throwing in their lot with Austria.
 
The effects of this alternate betrothal would have significant consequences, particularly in Italy. With Carlos still engaged to Maria Theresa and potentially being groomed to become the next Holy Roman Emperor, tensions would arise in European diplomacy. Charles VI's ambitions in Italy, coupled with the prospect of Tuscany and Parma falling under an expanded Austrian influence, would provoke objections from other European powers. The fear of an overwhelming Austrian presence would likely prompt opposing powers to seek alternatives to maintain the balance of power and prevent total Austrian control in the region. One possible solution would be to swap Carlos with his younger brother, Felipe, as the heir to Tuscany. Alternatively, an unpopular idea of Gian Gastone being succeeded by his sister, Anna Maria Luisa, at an advanced age and without children might be considered as a temporary solution.

Furthermore, the alignment of Spain with Austria would have far-reaching effects on conflicts and diplomatic relations in the 1730s and 1740s. The solid Austro-Spanish alliance would impact other major powers and potentially hinder reconciliation attempts between the French and Spanish branches of the Bourbons. As a result, the duration and nature of alliances like the Anglo-Austrian alliance and the Anglo-French alliance would be subject to change. The fear of a revived Habsburg encirclement might prompt French and British politicians to prioritize maintaining good relations with each other. Conflicts such as the War of the Polish Succession and the War of the Austrian Succession would likely witness different alliance lineups and play out with distinct dynamics.

Overall, if the betrothal between Carlos III and Maria Theresa were to hold in this alternative scenario, it would reshape the political landscape of Europe, particularly in Italy, and lead to significant shifts in alliances, diplomacy, and the balance of power among the major European powers.


What if Louis XV of France married Anne/Amelia of Great Britain? It's an interesting possibility for this alternate 16th-century world. The alliance between France and Great Britain through this marriage could have had significant consequences. It might have influenced the balance of power in Europe and shaped the course of history. This union could have brought these two nations closer together, despite their historical differences and conflicts. Exploring this hypothetical scenario opens up a world of intriguing possibilities for the future.
 
One thing is certain: Spain will be more involved in foreign policy with this marriage, with a Bourbon-Habsburg branch in Austria and Spain will most likely return to the pre-Carlos II scenario, I still have a question: Could Austrians hand Austrian Netherlands back to Spain?, Despite losing valuable territory, this could increase Spain's chances of fighting against France in conflicts between France and Austria, as well as no longer having the burden of garrisoning the region against France.
potentially being groomed to become the next Holy Roman Emperor
Very interesting butterfly, most likely that the other German states will surely respond, I think this could be the first shock if the French Bourbons don't support Carlos' candidacy to the HRE Or even support a rival candidacy (Maybe Bavarian?).
 
I think the Treaty of Vienna was first and foremost based on the need to normalize relations, but then deepened, I think, mainly out of pique. Philip was quite upset about Mariana Victoria being returned to Spain (though he caused that by sending Louise Elisabeth back to France) while Austria was sick of the English and Dutch haranguing them about the Ostend company, most recently at the end of the Congress in Cambrai in 1724.
This may very well be the case—but I think there was also a need for both sides to have such an alliance at that point in time. Certainly, Charles VI was doing whatever he could to ensure there would be recognition of the Pragmatic Sanction, while Elisabeth Farnese needed imperial support for Spanish claims in Italy. It didn't help that the articles concerning the marriage were secret articles that were leaked out, which caused diplomatic issues. IIRC, Charles VI essentially adopted an upset posture when this was an issue; he proclaimed that why did it matter that he had chosen to betroth two of his daughters to Spanish princes—and that he had never specified that one of those daughters would be Maria Theresa (this was in the period that his third daughter, Maria Amelia was still alive). Charles VI essentially throwing Elisabeth Farnese under the bus soured things greatly.

So there was an obvious need to normalize relations, to reiterate the mutual renunciations on each other's territory and to normalize trade. Then each side had one particular gain, for Austria it was to get Spain to recognize the Pragmatic Sanction. For Spain it was to secure the Infante Carlos' rights to Parma, Piacenza and Tuscany. All of that could have been done without a dynastic match and without seriously antagonizing the French or British. So what was there really to gain by taking things a step further? Not much, IMHO, for either side. So I think it was just annoyance, Spain with France and Austria with Britain, that drove the alliance beyond what was natural or workable in the international setting of the time. Which is born out by the fact that the man who negotiated it, Ripperda, was disavowed and imprisoned within six months of returning to Madrid from Vienna.
I'm not sure. I agree that there was no need to bring a dynastic marriage in these agreements—but why were they attached to the Treaty of Vienna when they weren't necessary? Certainly princes and princesses of the period are chess pieces and bargaining chips and may be betrothed where it is needed and most useful, and not every engagement will go through or be workable. But it seems that there was some interest in both sides, even if made in a pique. In the specific period (~1725) Charles VI's thoughts on Maria Theresa's marriage were still in flux. Following the death of Léopold Clément, Charles VI hesitated in pursuing the Lorraine match because he pondered if his daughter might need to be married into a more powerful royal house in order to secure her succession: hence plans in other directions, such an aborted attempt to marry her to the Crown Prince of Portugal, and then later this agreement with Spain. Certainly this is an argument that makes sense given Charles VI's obsession with gaining foreign support for the Pragmatic Sanction—even if he might have been better off listening to Eugene of Savoy who argued that Austria would need 200,000 soldiers and a full treasury to ensure Maria Theresa's rights.

It certainly would be the first alliance that wasn't natural or workable.

Then when the Spanish besieged Gibraltar the whole alliance was proven to be useless as the Austrians couldn't and wouldn't do anything to assist. Meanwhile the government had changed again in Paris, with the Duke de Bourbon (who was the primary architect of Louis XV's marriage to Marie Leszczynska) being dismissed and replaced as chief minister by the Cardinal de Fleury. Fleury was then able to initiate a rapprochement with Spain to the point that he mediated a peace between Britain and Spain which ended the conflict in Gibraltar. Spain then threw Austria overboard at the Peace conference in Soissons in which it was able to get the recognition for Parma and Tuscany. This culminated in the Treaty of Seville between Spain, France and Britain in which the latter two powers not only recognized Carlos' rights in Parma and Tuscany but authorized a limited Spanish military expedition to Italy to secure them if necessary. That pact was underpinned by a different dynastic double match, Ferdinand to Barbara of Portugal and Mariana Victoria to Barbara's brother Joseph. Portugal here being, as a British ally, a kind of ersatz Anglo-Spanish match.
Not so much that they couldn't do anything: it was more the fact that the British did everything that they could ensure that Charles VI wouldn't interfere. The British offered numerous concessions to ensure the Austrians wouldn't offer any help. If Britain fails to reach an agreement with Austria to ensure they don't provide aid to Spain, it will at least allow the "alliance" to amble on beyond this point. If Charles VI is still set that he needs such an "alliance" with Spain to ensure his daughters succession, he may very well decide to do so. It's not as if the Austrians or British need much at this point for any such discussions to implode or fall apart—Lord Townshend was in office until ~1730 and was a virulent Austrophobe, and the Ostend Company represented a thorn in Britain's side as well.

So to make the Habsburg-Bourbon match work I think you would need a more intractable breakdown of relations between Spain and France. Maybe Bourbon stays in power instead of being replaced by Fleury. War would have to escalate between Spain and Britain to the extent that even modest Austrian financial support is seen as sufficient to maintain the alliance. Because the main reason things broke down was not Charles' or Austria's lukewarm commitment to the idea but the increasing realization on the part of Spain (and especially Farnese) that they had more to gain by coming to terms with Britain and France than by throwing in their lot with Austria.
I agree with you on this, absolutely. Keeping the Duke of Bourbon in office a bit longer might help quite a bit, though given his ineptitude in governance, it's certainly a scary thought. Fleury was already quite old—73 in 1726. I suppose the easiest solution would be for Fleury to die in 1725-26, probably before he retires from court. It was Bourbon's heavy-handed attempts to break Fleury's influence over the king contributed to his downfall—when Bourbon was forced to recall Fleury, Fleury used that to take matters into his own hand and secure Bourbon's dismissal. I definitely agree that the only way to bring this match to fruition would to bring about a situation where Austria and Spain have to maintain their alliance... even if it's not exactly one that offers much benefits to either side.

In that same notion, we'd probably need to see an endurance of the Anglo-French alliance, too. Much like Austria and Spain, Britain and France was rapidly drifting apart in the 1720s as well—the Treaty of Hannover was essentially a dead letter post-1731, and France had less interest following the birth of the Dauphin in 1729, as the succession was secured and ended the possibility of trouble if Louis XV were to die without an heir. If Bourbon stays in power, and the Anglo-Spanish conflict in 1727 develops into something worse, both sides may find themselves saddled with allies that they remain aligned too because of where things stand, despite other ideas perhaps being more beneficial.

What if Louis XV of France married Anne/Amelia of Great Britain? It's an interesting possibility for this alternate 16th-century world. The alliance between France and Great Britain through this marriage could have had significant consequences. It might have influenced the balance of power in Europe and shaped the course of history. This union could have brought these two nations closer together, despite their historical differences and conflicts. Exploring this hypothetical scenario opens up a world of intriguing possibilities for the future.
IIRC, both sisters (Anne, the Princess Royal & Princess Amelia) were considered as potential brides when Louis XV's betrothal to the Spanish Infanta was ended. Certainly there were benefits to the idea of a British marriage: British relations with the Netherlands and Prussia would allow France to further normalize relations with both countries, and Britain would be a good ally to act as a counter against Spain. They were certainly two of the more prominent choices considered at the time.

The major issue was religion: it was considered a given that either princess would need to convert. Some feared that this might not be good enough for the Pope, whose support would need to be enlisted, especially given that France had broken the betrothal between Louis XV and Marianna Victoria. Other concerns centered around the possibility of either princess becoming Regent of France if Louis XV died and their son was underage, as some felt that they might have inclinations towards the Huguenots. The marriage plans died when the French insisted that Anne or Amelia would need to convert. This made the issue difficult for George II: the whole reason he sat upon the British throne was because his line had been Protestant, while the exiled Stuarts were Catholics. No doubt it might have caused political issues if George II had agreed to such a marriage and agreed that his daughter could convert. It probably didn't help that the Duke of Bourbon supported the Archbishop of Rouen in drawing up a new law against heresy in 1724 that revived persecution against the Huguenots that had lapsed during the Régence.

One thing is certain: Spain will be more involved in foreign policy with this marriage, with a Bourbon-Habsburg branch in Austria and Spain will most likely return to the pre-Carlos II scenario, I still have a question: Could Austrians hand Austrian Netherlands back to Spain?, Despite losing valuable territory, this could increase Spain's chances of fighting against France in conflicts between France and Austria, as well as no longer having the burden of garrisoning the region against France.
Indeed, it would definitely be a big shift in Europe's diplomatic stances as they stood post-1714. I can't say I see any scenario where Austria returns the Southern Netherlands to Spain. While it was certainly a territory that was a white elephant of sorts of Austria, it wasn't necessarily indefensible: after Austria gained the territory, they had to sign a barrier treaty with the Dutch, which gave the Dutch control over several forts along the French border. It also established a joint Austro-Dutch military force of ~30,000 men, with the Dutch paying 40% of the costs and the Austrians paying 60%. It's been debated if the treaty was effective—some say yes, others say no. The Barrier Forts fell when France invaded the area in the 1740s, though it took them three years to conquer them all. I think the main issue is that even if Austria is interested in off-loading the territory, I cannot see any Spanish interest in taking it: under Felipe V and Elisabeth Farnese's influence, Italy was the primary focus. No doubt there would be objections from all corners: the French and British aren't going to accept the idea of it, and the Dutch likely won't either.

Very interesting butterfly, most likely the other German states will respond, I think this could be the first shock if the French Bourbons don't support Carlos' candidacy to the HRE Or even support a rival candidacy (Maybe Bavarian?).
I think that even if the French accept the Pragmatic Sanction in this scenario (they did eventually IOTL) and have to reorient themselves to the reality that Carlos will marry Maria Theresa, they probably will not offer any support to Carlos and Maria Theresa. Both Bavaria and Saxony had claims to the Habsburg inheritance because of Joseph I's daughters—Maria Josepha had married the Elector of Saxony, while Maria Amalia married the Elector of Bavaria. Per the original agreements signed between Joseph I and Charles VI, Joseph's daughters were supposed to come before Charles VI's. It's entirely possible that France might offer their support to Bavaria as they did IOTL.
 
maybe he's just not that impressed with François Étienne, or for whatever other reason you choose.
maybe he lets slip about the whole "no renunciation, no archduchess" clause earlier. OTL he kept it under his hat and ambushed François Étienne with it later. When his mother (Liselotte the Younger) and siblings heard about it they were adamantly against it. His mother most of all because, per the marriage contract, François was denied the right to even act as regent if Maria Theresia left an infant successor...his brother because it robbed him of his inheritance (Karl VI had originally intended Charles Alexander follow his uncle into the church and take up the Electorate of Trier).

The Bourbons would then control France, Spain AND the HRE/Austria… I don’t see the European powers (especially Britain) being keen on this idea
not necessarily. In 1729 it wasn't clear that Carlos would succeed in Spain. Fernando VI's stillborn son (of 1733, I think) can easily survive (Isabel Farnese had the doctors persuade Fernando VI that due to Barbara's asthma, it was better if they not try again).

Yes, the Bourbons control all that, but there's no guarantee they'd walk in lock-step. As pointed out, France and England are pretty chummy at this point (ICR if it was Fleury's death or something else that caused this to fail). Spain and Austria are not guaranteed to be on cordial terms once Felipe V dies (since Fernando VI despised his stepmom and all his half-siblings*). Even if Fernando VI still has no children, there's no guarantee that the Spaniards will accept the emperor as king of Spain**

*he killed Maria Antonieta's match with the king of Poland and sent her to Sardinia instead.
**this is of itself an interesting quandary, since I doubt that Carlos will be elected as emperor. François Étienne had the duchy of Teschen and the county of Falkenstein that gave him a toehold as "I've got a stake in the empire". They didn't count Tuscany in his election OTL and I don't see why they would here. If the Anglo-French-Prussian alliance persists against an Austro-Spanish one, that means Karl VII ends up being more than just a placeholder emperor. At best, Carlos and Maria Theresia might end up left with Hungary, Croatia, Naples (since Carlos wouldn't go conquering it back from his TTL father-in-law), the Netherlands (possibly***), and Tuscany, while the Wittelsbachs get the empire.
***unless they get spun off as a dowry for Maria Anna of Austria and Infante Felipe (as his OTL wife made a deal with Maria Theresia to achieve in the 7YW OTL)
 
received-456135433612985.jpg

Oh yes finally timeline where my inner monarchist Habsburgphile and Capetphile won't have any trouble for rooting for one side or another

Charles VII and III Of Holy Roman Empire&King Of Romans&King In Germany And King of Spain In His Own Rigth and his wife Maria Theresa's
Jure uxoris
Apostle King Of Hungary&Crotia
King Of Bohemia
Duke of Parma and Piacenza
Duke of Luxembourg
Count of Namur
Duke of Brabant, Limburg,
Lothier, and Milan;
Count of Flanders and Hainaut
King of Sardinia
King of Naples
King of Sicily



It's almost the entire realm of V restored now the important question of what name the house shall have would it be. Habsburg-Bourbon or Bourbon-Habsburg
 
In that same notion, we'd probably need to see an endurance of the Anglo-French alliance, too. Much like Austria and Spain, Britain and France was rapidly drifting apart in the 1720s as well—the Treaty of Hannover was essentially a dead letter post-1731, and France had less interest following the birth of the Dauphin in 1729, as the succession was secured and ended the possibility of trouble if Louis XV were to die without an heir. If Bourbon stays in power, and the Anglo-Spanish conflict in 1727 develops into something worse, both sides may find themselves saddled with allies that they remain aligned too because of where things stand, despite other ideas perhaps being more beneficial.

I guess that's the bottom line, right? We need to preserve a very tenuous alliance structure. Its not so much that Spain-Austria and Britain-France are 'unnatural' so much as each half of the the partnership doesn't offer a tremendous amount to the other, or at least not as much as an alternative combination.

In the long run I also worry about the acceptability of Carlos, as a Spanish raised Bourbon prince, to the German Prince Electors. It seems like it would even harder to get him elected King of the Romans that the Duke of Lorraine (who was at least a prince of the Empire).

Also there's the problem of Philip V. He didn't want to be King again (after Luis died) and considered abdicating a second time on a few occasions. There is a 'Fernandine' party in Madrid that though he should have become King after Louis (as was specified in Philip's abdication) and which is generally opposed to Philip and Elisabeth's Italian projects which they viewed the Austrian alliance as an extension of. Also Philip is constantly haunted by the prospect of Louis XV dying. He's always going be thinking about the possibility to returning to France to rule (the thought was that he would go with Ferdinand and leave behind Carlos in Madrid). So that would mess things up if Carlos becomes King of Spain, as you pointed out in the need to move Carlos further down the Spanish succession.

Maybe if the elder Infante Philip (b. 1712) had lived. Since he died IOTL until 1719 him living longer wouldn't impact the birth of Farnese's elder children. But he's still young enough that Philip V probably returns as King when Louis dies. But the younger Philip would then become Prince of Asturias with Ferdinand as a spare. Fleury dies early on the other hand and France does not reconcile with Spain so quickly. Philip makes clear that he wants himself, followed by the younger Philip to succeed to the French throne with Ferdinand as Spanish heir apparent. That antagonizes the French and British but leaves Carlos free for Austria. Maybe that works?
 
received-456135433612985.jpg

Oh yes finally timeline where my inner monarchist Habsburgphile and Capetphile won't have any trouble for rooting for one side or another

Charles VII and III Of Holy Roman Empire&King Of Romans&King In Germany And King of Spain In His Own Rigth and his wife Maria Theresa's
Jure uxoris
Apostle King Of Hungary&Crotia
King Of Bohemia
Duke of Parma and Piacenza
Duke of Luxembourg
Count of Namur
Duke of Brabant, Limburg,
Lothier, and Milan;
Count of Flanders and Hainaut
King of Sardinia
King of Naples
King of Sicily



It's almost the entire realm of V restored now the important question of what name the house shall have would it be. Habsburg-Bourbon or Bourbon-Habsburg
Amazing work!
 
Habsburg-Bourbon or Bourbon-Habsburg
I think it would depend on the personality of Carlos and his children, and the influence of Maria Theresia, how France reacts (supporting Prussia and Bavaria against Austria) could also influence.
 
How does an Austro-Spanish alliance change the Austrian succession war?
As I pointed out, unlike François Étienne, Carlos owns no territory inside the empire (Tuscany was disregarded for François, I see no reason why it would be deemed sufficient for Carlos) which is rather a basic requirement of being elected.
 
How does an Austro-Spanish alliance change the Austrian succession war?

Its unclear what the alliance system would be by 1740. Really you need to work out how the War of the Polish Succession plays out. That would be completely different from OTL and set the stage for a conflict over the Austrian Succession. With Austria and Spain allied and Carlos betrothed to Maria Theresa fighting would be different in Italy. Probably France still avoids fighting in the Netherlands and still allies with Savoy. The Netherlands and Britain could still remain neutral as IOTL. Although Hanover perhaps joins Bavaria in a more pro-French position given a different alliance system or at least remains neutral depriving the Imperial army of troops. But any troops Austria may have to divert from Italy to Germany would be made up for with Spanish assistance in Italy since Spain could ally with Austria with the goal of retaking Sardinia.

Spanish help probably allows Austria to hold onto Milan in the face of Franco-Savoyard attack. Perhaps there are instead rival naval expeditions, France against Austrian Presidi or Naples and Spain against Savoyard Sardinia. Its possible the war ends with the status quo ante in Italy. That would certainly help the Austrians going into a succession war.

Although it seems to make it less likely that Carlos would be considered for election to succeed Charles VI if more of the German princes are in a pro-French camp. So Charles Albert of Bavaria seems even more likely to be elected Emperor. So the problem is that Austria may be left with no allies in Germany if Prussia turns then against them when Maria Theresa dies. And without British subsidies I don't know how they'd fare in a succession war even with a stronger position in Italy and Spanish aid. Especially if Britain becomes involved in a conflict on the opposing side and actively aids Charles Albert and/or Prussia.
 
received-456135433612985.jpg

Oh yes finally timeline where my inner monarchist Habsburgphile and Capetphile won't have any trouble for rooting for one side or another

Charles VII and III Of Holy Roman Empire&King Of Romans&King In Germany And King of Spain In His Own Rigth and his wife Maria Theresa's
Jure uxoris
Apostle King Of Hungary&Crotia
King Of Bohemia
Duke of Parma and Piacenza
Duke of Luxembourg
Count of Namur
Duke of Brabant, Limburg,
Lothier, and Milan;
Count of Flanders and Hainaut
King of Sardinia
King of Naples
King of Sicily



It's almost the entire realm of V restored now the important question of what name the house shall have would it be. Habsburg-Bourbon or Bourbon-Habsburg
It would definitely be a very interesting TL. It is an unlikely scenario, but more unthinkable and improbable things are historical facts of our reality.

It would depend a lot on Maria Theresa's influence, but I like the name Habsburg-Bourbon house. Another issue would be his children, it would be fun to see that Alt Carlos IV of Spain is the opposite of OTL, a smart pragmatic reactionary who knows how to silence his opponents instead of being an easily manipulated absentee idiot, and maintains an interesting rivalry with his brother the Alt-king of the HRE.
 
Top