The question is simple, basically France is capable of acquiring the whole of the Burgundian Inheritance, either via Mary of Burgundy being born later and being wed to Charles VIII of France or the French having success in conquering it fully from the Austrians or maybe Charles the Bold is infertile after a accident and when he dies, Louis XI claims his lands and brings them in. Either way, the Burgundian Inheritance ends up fully French.

Question is, what now? For centuries the ambitions of French kings lay in expanding towards the Low Countries well until Louis XIV and it laid the path for several wars that while not always winning, did manage to solidify the modern borders France has today alongside a centralized existence, so would the French kings turn to Italy now? Or maybe try and get the "natural" borders into the Rhine? This also ties into centralization as the Kings of France would definitely add those lands to the Royal Inheritance but the locals already didn't enjoy Charles' centralization efforts and they would like even less the French king ones, not to mention the reactions of their neighbors: England is probably shitting itself, Spain would be even more hostile and I can't imagine the HRE being happy that several lands of the empire are now under French control just like that.
 
The terrifying Franco-Burgundian union. Here's the thing, if Charles had no heirs it would have to go to their closest male relative which would be John II of Nevers I think? (correct me if I'm wrong here) I'm ignoring female lines from Burgundy due to dowries and how medieval marriages work so it would just delay the inevitable as John II of Nevers only had a female heir who was already married to John II of Cleves. Now John died in 1491, so whether or not Charles VIII would do the same thing as Louis is debatable.

The second thing that I would find very compelling here if Marie of Burgundy married Charles VIII is the actual marriage itself, a key part of this marriage especially after the signing of the Great privilege is that the estates general had to approve of the marriage, Mary also even marrying Maximilian forced him to recognize that the two states would be split between two different heirs, and I highly doubt that Mary would not do the same here, and especially considering that she would have regency by 1483 (although Anne might contest that) Burgundy would likely walk away from France immediately after the death of Marie and the two heirs of Charles would take over the kingdom of France and Burgundy seperately.

I'm not going to go into the foreign relations aspect of this as much because importantly by Charles the Bold's reign the empire had no control over Burgundy LOL, Spain was only opposed due to its own claims in Southern France something that was easily solved by Charles selling the lands back to Aragon. England was under Edward IV who had no love for Burgundy at this point due to the betrayal at Picquigny so you might see an English invasion but most likely not an English victory.
Hope this helps @Kurd Gossemer
 
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The second thing that I would find very compelling here if Marie of Burgundy married Charles VIII is the actual marriage itself, a key part of this marriage especially after the signing of the Great privilege is that the estates general had to approve of the marriage, Mary also even marrying Maximilian forced him to recognize that the two states would be split between two different heirs, and I highly doubt that Mary would not do the same here, and especially considering that she would have regency by 1483 (although Anne might contest that) Burgundy would likely walk away from France immediately after the death of Marie and the two heirs of Charles would take over the kingdom of France and Burgundy seperately.
What if there's only one heir or France somehow tries to force Burgundy to keep it tied to the crown somehow?
 
What if there's only one heir or France somehow tries to force Burgundy to keep it tied to the crown somehow?
Hmm..... I do think the more established families especially Nassau (maybe Croy but that's debatable) would try their best to peel off any portion of the Burgundian inheritance after Marie's death. The issue I have with a complete Burgundian-French union is that the instruments of Burgundian governance were far too entrenched especially under Charles the Bold, so it would take a hell of a lot of time in order to fully bring it back into the French crown. That's why under the Habsburgs there were governors or Lords of the Netherlands/Burgundy who governed on behalf of the Spanish Habsburgs, I expect something similar to be made especially considering it was won through marriage and not by conquest. Charles made Burgundy completely independent from France in 1471 and I supposed to marriage could restore the status quo but I highly doubt any of the imperial lands would be welcomed into joining with the crown of France and instead with an opportunistic Habsburg strengthen their own estates and declare a new "Burgundy"
 
Hmm..... I do think the more established families especially Nassau (maybe Croy but that's debatable) would try their best to peel off any portion of the Burgundian inheritance after Marie's death. The issue I have with a complete Burgundian-French union is that the instruments of Burgundian governance were far too entrenched especially under Charles the Bold, so it would take a hell of a lot of time in order to fully bring it back into the French crown. That's why under the Habsburgs there were governors or Lords of the Netherlands/Burgundy who governed on behalf of the Spanish Habsburgs, I expect something similar to be made especially considering it was won through marriage and not by conquest. Charles made Burgundy completely independent from France in 1471 and I supposed to marriage could restore the status quo but I highly doubt any of the imperial lands would be welcomed into joining with the crown of France and instead with an opportunistic Habsburg strengthen their own estates and declare a new "Burgundy"
Meaning a war between France and Habsburgs happening anyways over the fate of Burgundy then?
 
I'll side-step 'how' France inherits Burgundy for now, since that's a difficult question and there's a variety ways for us to get there (heiress marrying the king/future king, line dying out, ect).

The big thing is that any dissolution of the House of Valois-Burgundy will give the French claims on part of their territories (primarily the Duchy of Burgundy and their French fiefs in Picardy, Artois, and Flanders—though even claims to Burgundy are tenuous, as there is debate over if the Duchy of Burgundy was given as appange. Some say yes, some say no) but that doesn't necessarily mean claims on the remainder of the territories in the Low Countries. Some territories were won by conquest, others by inheritance (ie. Brabant) and some were purchased. Depending on when the House of Burgundy dies out, there are still claimants such as John II of Nevers (d. 1491) which might have viable claims to other portions of the inheritance, not to mention the headache of various Burgundian princesses who married abroad, whose descendants might be viable successors to these territories outside France—though some, such as the Dukes of Savoy will be in no position to fight France for them.

The biggest headache will be the fact that these fiefs in the Low Countries are not legally part of the Kingdom of France and are part of the Holy Roman Empire, and will maintain their own distinct customs. I have no doubt that the Kings of France will probably attempt to connect these territories more closely to France and will have issues dealing with the Estates General of those territories as well as the Parliament of Mechelen (if it isn't abolished—if it isn't, I have no doubt that the Parlement of Paris will complain viciously). If France pursues a centralizing policy to integrate these territories more closely with France, then you only have to look to the reigns of Charles V and Philip II and see what troubles their own policies to centralize the Burgundian polity wrought.
 
Like drakeRlugia said, the succession laws of the Burgundian polity are quite numerous and different allowing female succession and I have no doubt any of John the Fearless' daughter's lines would claim parts of the Burgundian inheritance in fact the very same John II of Nevers claimed Brabant from Charles the Bold, although with an incredibly strong France especially under Louis the Spider these claims would probably be fought off easily.

I also would like to point out in such a case a far more devastating Mad war would be fought and we could very easily see Marie just straight up annul the marriage and remarry to someone else in order to gain her duchy's full independence if Louis the Spider alienated Marie that much or if France is that insistent on integration.
 
The biggest headache will be the fact that these fiefs in the Low Countries are not legally part of the Kingdom of France and are part of the Holy Roman Empire, and will maintain their own distinct customs. I have no doubt that the Kings of France will probably attempt to connect these territories more closely to France and will have issues dealing with the Estates General of those territories as well as the Parliament of Mechelen (if it isn't abolished—if it isn't, I have no doubt that the Parlement of Paris will complain viciously). If France pursues a centralizing policy to integrate these territories more closely with France, then you only have to look to the reigns of Charles V and Philip II and see what troubles their own policies to centralize the Burgundian polity wrought.
I think the main difference is that unlike those two, France would have both a direct land border with them and relatively close to a center of power like Paris as well as having no major enemies to fight off at the moment, something that couldn't be said for Charles V or Filipe given the constant wars and lack of funds Spain was in, so I can see them having success in crushing those potential uprisings.

Like drakeRlugia said, the succession laws of the Burgundian polity are quite numerous and different allowing female succession and I have no doubt any of John the Fearless' daughter's lines would claim parts of the Burgundian inheritance in fact the very same John II of Nevers claimed Brabant from Charles the Bold, although with an incredibly strong France especially under Louis the Spider these claims would probably be fought off easily.

I also would like to point out in such a case a far more devastating Mad war would be fought and we could very easily see Marie just straight up annul the marriage and remarry to someone else in order to gain her duchy's full independence if Louis the Spider alienated Marie that much or if France is that insistent on integration.
Especially given that Charles VIII wouldn't be married to the heiress of Brittany which although their kids didn't survive, still means Brittany has even more reason to try and fight for their old privilegies. Either way, I could see France focusing first on securing Burgundy above all to keep both the rich provinces in as well as secure the most immediate threat towards Paris
 
I think the main difference is that unlike those two, France would have both a direct land border with them and relatively close to a center of power like Paris as well as having no major enemies to fight off at the moment, something that couldn't be said for Charles V or Filipe given the constant wars and lack of funds Spain was in, so I can see them having success in crushing those potential uprisings.
Yet Charles the Bold despite numerous wars managed to defeat Louis the spider in practically all of them LOL. A Franco-Burgundian union is just incredibly hard to keep especially with the personality and goals of Marie.
 
Meaning a war between France and Habsburgs happening anyways over the fate of Burgundy then?
You could have a war, but the biggest problem is the time that France has to gain the loyalty (or eliminating/isolating the disloyal) of the most essential nobles. In otl the only area not taken over by the French was the Netherlands. If the French had won the battle of Guinegate, France would have taken the Netherlands (in addition to the high probability of Maximilian dying in the battle) as a whole or the absolute majority. It should have been a French victory, they had more troops and suffered less than 1/5th the Habsburg/Flemish casualties. But the battle stalled the French advance. If in the OTL it was almost a total victory for France, it is not difficult for that to happen in this situation.
 
Yet Charles the Bold despite numerous wars managed to defeat Louis the spider in practically all of them LOL. A Franco-Burgundian union is just incredibly hard to keep especially with the personality and goals of Marie.
True but assuming he dies still as well as Maximilian not leading the troops, French victory is very likely.

You could have a war, but the biggest problem is the time that France has to gain the loyalty (or eliminating/isolating the disloyal) of the most essential nobles. In otl the only area not taken over by the French was the Netherlands. If the French had won the battle of Guinegate, France would have taken the Netherlands (in addition to the high probability of Maximilian dying in the battle) as a whole or the absolute majority. It should have been a French victory, they had more troops and suffered less than 1/5th the Habsburg/Flemish casualties. But the battle stalled the French advance. If in the OTL it was almost a total victory for France, it is not difficult for that to happen in this situation.
Wow, did not know this, this could be a good POD too if Max gets killed and French utterly at the field
 
The question is simple, basically France is capable of acquiring the whole of the Burgundian Inheritance, either via Mary of Burgundy being born later and being wed to Charles VIII of France or the French having success in conquering it fully from the Austrians or maybe Charles the Bold is infertile after a accident and when he dies, Louis XI claims his lands and brings them in. Either way, the Burgundian Inheritance ends up fully French.
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I was under the impression that “Burgundian Inheritance” consisted of two distinct parts: (a) territories which belonged to the French crown and would legally return to France when the male line of the dukes will extinct and (b) the territories acquired by the Dukes outside France which could legally be united with France by marriage but actually were the part of the HRE so if Charles dies without an issue Louis does not have a legal claim to them and, short of the marriage scenario, it is not quite clear how else he or his successors could get them: the French military system of that time hardly was adequate for such a conquest.

So marriage looks like the most plausible scenario to me but even it is not going to be peaceful: in OTL Max, IIRC, had to deal with the rebellious cities. Probably they would be as reluctant to give their “liberties” to a Valois as they were to Hapsburg.

Question is, what now? For centuries the ambitions of French kings lay in expanding towards the Low Countries well until Louis XIV and it laid the path for several wars that while not always winning, did manage to solidify the modern borders France has today alongside a centralized existence, so would the French kings turn to Italy now?
Even the inheritance by marriage scenario puts the happy beneficiary into a touchy situation with the HRE. Would a king of France accept the fact that he (as count and duke of this and that) is a vassal of the Emperor? Would the Emperor try to press this issue? Admittedly, without the Netherlands as a source of income the Hapsburgs are in a much worse position but still Max probably could rally the adequate resources to make the French life interesting.

The marriage scenario means that Max marries Anne of Brittany and the kings of France are getting a potentially “interesting” pain the their butt which they have to address before going anywhere. Well, and while Charles is a vassal of Max, Max is a vassal of Charles so how this situation is going to be reconciled? 😉

Then goes the obvious question of the next generation: Charles marries Mary and Phillip of Austria is not born (is there any male heir?). Max marries Anne and what is a byproduct? The whole OTL Hapsburg monstrosity may not come to existence and this will have serious geopolitical consequences specifics of which depend upon the details of your schema.

As far as Italy is concerned, if the whole circus starts (which requires Charles having settlement with the HRE ), then France still loses Naples - this was a strictly Spanish affair. But who is ruling the HRE and what are his resources? In OTL it took the unified Spanish-HRE resources to eventually beat France. So you probably need to have a similar situation (who is going to produce whom, etc.). Taken alone neither Spain nor the HRE would not (IMO) convincingly defeat France in the Northern Italy: Spain is lacking obvious reason and the Hapsburg without the Netherlands and then Americas does not have money.

So France, short of non-zero probability that its kings will manage to screw things up (as in the Naples), may quite well end up having Milan and Genoa.


Or maybe try and get the "natural" borders into the Rhine? This also ties into centralization as the Kings of France would definitely add those lands to the Royal Inheritance but the locals already didn't enjoy Charles' centralization efforts and they would like even less the French king ones, not to mention the reactions of their neighbors: England is probably shitting itself, Spain would be even more hostile and I can't imagine the HRE being happy that several lands of the empire are now under French control just like that.
England was not a major military factor and Spain, which does not have any claim to the Netherlands and County of Burgundy, after kicking the French out of Naples may not have a serious reason for the further expansion in Italy. Plus, without the Netherlands, even American gold and silver may not be enough for the needed military effort (honestly, I don’t have a breakdown on that so this is just a guess based upon the problems the Spaniards had with financing the war with the Netherlands).
HRE is a tricky issue but it looks like that the Spanish and Netherlands’ money had been critical for financing a major war: the landsknechts had to be paid and the Austrian Hapsburgs tended to have empty pockets. So the French may get lucky.
 
The terrifying Franco-Burgundian union. Here's the thing, if Charles had no heirs it would have to go to their closest male relative which would be John II of Nevers I think? (correct me if I'm wrong here)
AFAIK, the appanage part (French part of the Duchy) was granted upon a condition that with the extinction of a male line it goes back to the crown.


I'm ignoring female lines from Burgundy due to dowries and how medieval marriages work so it would just delay the inevitable as John II of Nevers only had a female heir who was already married to John II of Cleves. Now John died in 1491, so whether or not Charles VIII would do the same thing as Louis is debatable.

The second thing that I would find very compelling here if Marie of Burgundy married Charles VIII is the actual marriage itself, a key part of this marriage especially after the signing of the Great privilege is that the estates general had to approve of the marriage, Mary also even marrying Maximilian forced him to recognize that the two states would be split between two different heirs, and I highly doubt that Mary would not do the same here, and especially considering that she would have regency by 1483 (although Anne might contest that) Burgundy would likely walk away from France immediately after the death of Marie and the two heirs of Charles would take over the kingdom of France and Burgundy seperately.

This is a possibility but France was much more powerful militarily than the Austrian Hapsburgs so the whole thing may (or may not) be settled differently.

 
Honestly I can see France now changing its strategy towards being an antagonistic towards the Empire and instead acting as an "Imperial Player" pressing the rights of the Burgundian Dukes within Imperial territory and using that to entrench its hands over key electors. France would now be throwing its weight around within the HRE as the other "Successor of Charlemagne."

The Habsburgs might be truly screwed as once Maximilian I dies, the French would pose a serious claim over the Imperial title. Heck they might just sidestep the election entirely by making some deal with the Pope arranging for him to crown the King of France as Emperor.

France here would be extremely prestigious and was a strong military power, greater than the Hasburgs who struggled to really do much in Germany let alone Italy, which was in a political vacuum under Emperor Frederick III.

Assuming the Ottomans keep their hold on Otranto, or slightly enlarge it, I can see the Pope ally with the King of France, wanting a strong Empire to push back the Turks. And since the French King is ruling further from Paris, and has historically been friendly with the Papacy, there's less of a chance of some sort of investiture controversy occurring.
 
Even the inheritance by marriage scenario puts the happy beneficiary into a touchy situation with the HRE. Would a king of France accept the fact that he (as count and duke of this and that) is a vassal of the Emperor? Would the Emperor try to press this issue? Admittedly, without the Netherlands as a source of income the Hapsburgs are in a much worse position but still Max probably could rally the adequate resources to make the French life interesting.

The marriage scenario means that Max marries Anne of Brittany and the kings of France are getting a potentially “interesting” pain the their butt which they have to address before going anywhere. Well, and while Charles is a vassal of Max, Max is a vassal of Charles so how this situation is going to be reconciled? 😉
Honestly I could see it depending on if Max can rally the Imperial Parliament to do something about it, those on Rhine are likelier to listen given they could next on the chopping block while everyone else is unlikely to be swayed, especially if there's some French bribes involved.

I think that at the end of the day, the "conquered" HRE territories now in French hands just get formally recognized as no longer being a imperial fiefdom because realistically, they can't do anything short of war
Then goes the obvious question of the next generation: Charles marries Mary and Phillip of Austria is not born (is there any male heir?). Max marries Anne and what is a byproduct? The whole OTL Hapsburg monstrosity may not come to existence and this will have serious geopolitical consequences specifics of which depend upon the details of your schema.
IIRC, the Hungarians had sacked Vienna around that time or at least came very close towards doing that, without Burgundy and unlikely to get Spain, Hapsburgs are unlikely to get Hungary too but they can at least focus on the HRE and see if they can't improve it.
As far as Italy is concerned, if the whole circus starts (which requires Charles having settlement with the HRE ), then France still loses Naples - this was a strictly Spanish affair. But who is ruling the HRE and what are his resources? In OTL it took the unified Spanish-HRE resources to eventually beat France. So you probably need to have a similar situation (who is going to produce whom, etc.). Taken alone neither Spain nor the HRE would not (IMO) convincingly defeat France in the Northern Italy: Spain is lacking obvious reason and the Hapsburg without the Netherlands and then Americas does not have money.

So France, short of non-zero probability that its kings will manage to screw things up (as in the Naples), may quite well end up having Milan and Genoa.
I could still the HRE, especially a Hapsburg led one, attempting to rally all sorts of allies it can to try and bring down the French Behemoth: the Pope, England, Spain, Italian states, whoever is in they'll take it. Although I do agree that in long term, the French will just be able to keep the Milan, Genoa and Savoy lands(and likely adding Corsica and Sardinia later on) and maintain influence on the peninsula via Venice as well as having a strong voice in the papacy.

Honestly I can see France now changing its strategy towards being an antagonistic towards the Empire and instead acting as an "Imperial Player" pressing the rights of the Burgundian Dukes within Imperial territory and using that to entrench its hands over key electors. France would now be throwing its weight around within the HRE as the other "Successor of Charlemagne."

The Habsburgs might be truly screwed as once Maximilian I dies, the French would pose a serious claim over the Imperial title. Heck they might just sidestep the election entirely by making some deal with the Pope arranging for him to crown the King of France as Emperor.

France here would be extremely prestigious and was a strong military power, greater than the Hasburgs who struggled to really do much in Germany let alone Italy, which was in a political vacuum under Emperor Frederick III.

Assuming the Ottomans keep their hold on Otranto, or slightly enlarge it, I can see the Pope ally with the King of France, wanting a strong Empire to push back the Turks. And since the French King is ruling further from Paris, and has historically been friendly with the Papacy, there's less of a chance of some sort of investiture controversy occurring.
I could definitely see France trying to expand upon the Rhine and creating allied German princedoms such as Bavaria to keep the east of the Rhine secured.


Same thing with a potential crusade against the Ottomans, no Austrian-Hispanic monarchy means no alliance, although in this case the French are likely to support the Hungarians and try and help them centralize so they can both fight off the Turks and Austrians
 
As someone ignorant on the subject I want to ask something that has to do with the topic but isnt exactly what OP questioned

How valuable was Burgundy exactly?

I know it was a important territory and a matter of pride as well, but I've never seen anyone talking how much the winner so to speak would gain from it even though when discussing stuff like american colonies we do have a idea of how valuable they were
 
French become even more powerful then before becoming the premier of power of Europe and probably start’s focusing at first on consolidation and after that they would go on to focus on Italy and probably Germany now England would also have to deal with the lowlands port’s and the Hapsburgs have to deal with their maincash cow being lost and have to become even more of danibe power


Expect them to become weaker without burgundy and have them try to get bavaria also expect the Spanish to be very troubled
 
The question is simple, basically France is capable of acquiring the whole of the Burgundian Inheritance, either via Mary of Burgundy being born later and being wed to Charles VIII of France
In that case, Mary of Burgundy is a daughter of Margaret of York, which could complicate English succession.
 
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